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Sarah J. Buszka (00:09)
Welcome to AI Applied, the podcast where we explore how businesses, industry, and higher education are putting AI to work in the real world. I'm your host, Sarah Buszka. I'm so excited about today's episode and I would like to take the moment to brag because where I work at Waukesha County Technical College, WCTC, we have an all women led AI team here. We are kicking butt in every corner of this institution from the academics,
from the lab side, from internal, from marketing, we're doing it all. And this is really important because today women make up only about 22 % of the global AI workforce. That's a big gap. And what that means is a lot of the technology and the things we're interacting with don't represent entire swaths of the population. And we're here to change that. And I'm joined by three incredible colleagues of mine at WCTC who are a part of this force to be reckoned with in AI.
here in Southeastern Wisconsin. First, I'd love to introduce Kathleen Yanasak. She is our Lead Graphic Designer at WCTC and an Adjunct Instructor in Graphic Design. With more than 10 years of experience in the field, she brings expertise in branding, visual communication, and creative strategy while helping prepare students for careers in design. Next, we have Nicki Kowalchuk. She is the Faculty Program Lead for our AI Data Specialist Program at WCTC.
where she focuses on the critical role data plays in building AI systems. She has spent the past 11 years teaching and developing courses in data analytics and machine learning and has launched both the data analytics and AI data specialist programs. Whew. And last but certainly not least, we have Brittney Schultz, who is an instructor of information technology at WCTC, where she teaches software development and helps prepare the next generation of technologists.
She holds a master's of science in computer and information systems and has spent much of her career at the intersection of technology, education, and mentorship. Welcome ladies to the show.
Brittney Schultz (02:09)
Thanks for having us.
Kathleen Yanasak (02:09)
Thank you.
Sarah J. Buszka (02:12)
Awesome. to start off, ⁓ Nicki I would love to ask you and then ask ⁓ everyone if they'd be willing to share maybe in 30 seconds or less, just a bit about your career path and how AI has become a part of your workflow. Was it something you pursued intentionally or was it something that evolved naturally?
Nicki Kowalchuk (02:32)
I think for me it was more of a natural thing. ⁓ So much of AI is built on top of data and data has always been interesting to me when I started taking classes as a student. It was the data classes that left out to me like, hey, this makes perfect sense with my brain. I love this stuff. So ⁓ you can't do most AI without data to train it. So for me, I think it was definitely a natural progression.
Sarah J. Buszka (02:56)
Facts.
Love it. Kathleen, what about you?
Kathleen Yanasak (03:04)
So starting off in design, I didn't think much about AI initially, but definitely really naturally and organically started making its way into my workflow just within the actual software that I use. And then it became something I really focused on when I started teaching, too. Like when to and how to start introducing those tools to young designers or future designers because I had to learn things like the old school from the bottom up way.
and what tools are good to take forward, what tools aren't. So it's been a little bit of a weird progression, but pretty natural.
Sarah J. Buszka (03:40)
That's a good way to frame it weird. think we all have swirled around weird progression, but a progression nonetheless. And Brittney what about you?
Brittney Schultz (03:48)
Yeah, I would echo definitely weird starting in, I think like the fall of 2023 starting to notice a lot of students doing the same nuanced thing in their software code that they were submitting and not able to really pin it on anything at first and then realizing, okay, they all just put it into chat GPT and that's how they all came to the same conclusion. And then I realized I didn't have a strong, like, I guess ⁓ founded
decision about plagiarism on it. Like is this cheating? Is it not? I really felt like I didn't have an informed decision yet. And so it coincided with finishing ⁓ my master's degree that I needed to do a huge research process ⁓ essentially for like a thesis. so ⁓ because it just made sense, that's what I researched. And so I read like 30 some literature reviews on what was currently going on in computer science and AI and
tried to figure out if one, my students should be using it and two, how? Because you could tell they wanted to, but they didn't really have a good sense of how to do it effectively at that point. so ⁓ really my goal was, ⁓ at least based on your question, was entirely intentional to figure out for myself, is this good for my students and how can I help support them?
Sarah J. Buszka (05:05)
Yeah, that's really great. We're all kind of talking a little bit about here. It was intentional and also it just happened and we had to just evolve and serve our students and our community and the school and learn from that. You hit on something, Brittney, that I wanna dive into next, and this might be little bit of a spicy question, but we like to do that on this show because you kind of touched on something, which is in these creative and technical fields, there's often a debate about whether AI enhances
or replaces human work. ⁓ So how do you see AI impacting your profession in the years to come? Like what role do you hope that plays in the future? And Brittney, if I can ask you to just kind of carry on your thought process there and then we'll pass the mic around.
Brittney Schultz (05:50)
Sure. mean, in computer science, everybody's saying it's going to replace the intro or the entry-level jobs. And there's been a ton of layoffs already. And I think there's been some pivoting since the layoffs. And people are rehiring again. It's kind of in flux because everybody's chasing this target that's so impossible to keep in front of. ⁓ So I would say in general, the tasks are going to go away.
that commonly surround the software developer. And then ⁓ because we're still too afraid to let go entirely, I think, right? We're very controlling as a species. We like our domain and we like to be able to make sure everything is done correctly. And so I feel like we're going to keep our hands on it for a while. And then eventually AI is going to slap our wrist and say, stop touching my code. And so really what that does is it opens up more space for
Sarah J. Buszka (06:39)
Ha
Brittney Schultz (06:45)
bigger thoughts and bigger plans to happen earlier, right? Instead of caught up in the tiny details of how to build something, it's gonna be more about the why and how to support it, how to scale it. And so I have a feeling that as the smaller tasks go away, we just get to jump into the bigger topics earlier related to architecture.
Sarah J. Buszka (07:06)
Yeah, that's really, really interesting. Nicki, can I ask you, what are your thoughts on that?
Nicki Kowalchuk (07:12)
kind of torn, honestly. I mean, we all wish we could predict the future, right? So I see
I think we're, as I like to explain it to my students, every time a new technology comes out, and whether it's software or data or IT, this is the big thing. It's going to solve all of our problems and we're never going to do X again. And then it crests and we're like, yeah, that was a dumb idea. We'll keep the good of it and we'll move on to the next thing. And here's the next topic. And it's the most incredible thing ever. And we go through these peaks and troughs on all of the technologies that have come out. ⁓
Sarah J. Buszka (07:41)
Hahaha
Nicki Kowalchuk (07:52)
And I feel like we're starting to crest some of the AI hype and get into the AI reality, which is way more exciting for me. ⁓ I don't think AI is gonna take over any of these tasks autonomously anytime in the near future. ⁓ I don't know what's gonna happen down the road, but I was just at a conference a couple of weeks ago where somebody from Microsoft was demoing all this cool stuff and you can ask.
Your data real live questions and here's all the stuff underneath it. And I'm like, so we want our CEOs just talking to an AI chat bot to ask questions of the data. Like that's scary to me. Like I don't trust half of the data engineers out there to do it right. Why would I trust AI? ⁓ Because data is messy, right? And data is all about getting the requirements right and getting the details right. And
Sarah J. Buszka (08:39)
Yeah.
Nicki Kowalchuk (08:50)
We humans who are not always very detail oriented have built these systems and we can't expect AI to sit on top of this messy thing that we have built and to get it right. So I think just because of the reality of the situation, it's not possible for it to just take these things on autonomously anytime in the near future.
Sarah J. Buszka (09:14)
Yeah, well, I think we had a mic drop moment here. ⁓ You're right, we can't trust on that, especially with everything underneath our AI, our data is a mess, biased all over the place. We can't expect anything great to come on top of that. Thank you. Kathleen, what about you? How do you see AI enhancing or replacing human work? How do you see it impacting your profession in the years to come?
Kathleen Yanasak (09:38)
Being in a very creative field, would be a lie to say that a lot of the AI stuff that has come out hasn't been really scary because so many people are taking art or design into their own hands and saying, I don't have to pay for this anymore. I can just do it myself.
And I guess for myself and for my students, I like to remind them that one, the little things that are embedded into our software and our programs, as long as we're staying up to it, it's kind of like Nicki said. It can take away some of that.
beginner work, that baseline work, but it's still your creativity and your idea. The only thing that those AI generative things are popping out are other people's ideas sort of mixed together. like human creativity is truly unique to human beings. And so that's one thing that I like. At the end of the day, let that be like the guiding light at the end of the tunnel. Talking to students, like, know, old school calligraphers used to write scrolls and scrolls and scrolls of text, right? And then we got printing presses for newspapers.
and we got keyboards for typing, and now we type everything digitally. ⁓ And even though there's that ebb and flow, and yeah, we don't use as much of that stuff anymore, those people learned new skills, new ways to design, and now we're doing that for a more modern age. I guess my, also am not sure, it's one of those things I go back and forth with all the time, what am I doing, and am I even gonna be relevant in the next 10 years? And I guess that's why I do prioritize making sure I know what's going on
Nicki Kowalchuk (11:03)
and
Kathleen Yanasak (11:09)
in my programs, what works, what doesn't work, where are the kinks and the quirks, and also reminding myself and everyone else that art is still valid, even in this time, and we are the creators of that. So we can always lay our, or hang our hats up on that at the end of the day.
Sarah J. Buszka (11:25)
Absolutely. I knew it could count in this group of women to have mic drop moments just left and right, just right out the gate in this podcast. Thank you. I think you also hit on something. Oh, go ahead.
Brittney Schultz (11:33)
you know what's funny?
I was gonna say real quick that like, you know, I just got myself for Christmas a Kindle scribe, right? So it's a Kindle, but you can draw with it too. And there's actually a feature where you can take your handwriting and as you write it, turns it into calligraphy. And I think it's hilarious because it's like, well, I could have also just put in the time myself to learn calligraphy, but instead here I get to just get it handed to me. So that kind of, you know, matches what you were saying, Kathleen, is like the core is still desired, right? Whether we have...
computers doing it for us or we actually have like true talent from, you know, the humans still existing.
Kathleen Yanasak (12:07)
Exactly, and there is something really kind of cool and magical that there are a lot of people who in my lifetime have said, like, I don't know how you can be so creative all the time. And to watch them get to experience that in their own way can be really cool. But I think that there is like a balance we still need to find, right? Like there's got to be this in between where people who are creatives and make for their living can still do that here. But then people who are finding that experience in a different way can still enjoy it. Like we're just...
Nicki Kowalchuk (12:23)
Thank you.
Kathleen Yanasak (12:35)
Like you said, Nicki, like it feels like the hype got up, up, up, and maybe we finally crested it. And now we can start to talk about where those differences are.
Sarah J. Buszka (12:45)
Yeah, well, that's actually a great segue because one of my next questions is around perspectives. I know all three of you and myself included, we all hear many perspectives on AI in our respective industries, areas, higher education, graphic design, teaching, learning, fill in the blank, right? And, you know, we're kind of talking about this, maybe crest, maybe coming down from a little bit of a hype. And I'm curious to hear from all of you. And I'll start with Brittney first. What perspectives do you think are missing?
in the field of AI right now that you think we should hear more of.
Brittney Schultz (13:19)
I think compassionate dialogue, especially for educators, I feel like it's been so disruptive for myself and my colleagues. And it's what I keep hearing everywhere I go is people seeking leadership in this space and not knowing how to progress forward and waiting for that guiding light of how do I incorporate this in my class? What should I allow? What should I not allow? And I think having more dialogues, we jumped from it's here.
to you must use it, you must promote it, you must completely understand it, and now you must train the people that, like a lot of our students are now being asked when they come in entry level positions to train the senior level employees on AI tools. And so it's a kind of ridiculous leap if you think about it. And honestly, I think there still needs to be a lot more dialogue in between and compassionate understanding of like, okay, everything has changed actually irrevocably.
How do we move beyond that? And you'll never get the buy-in otherwise, right? If people don't find a way to work with the tools, ⁓ I feel like they're never going to fully embrace them. And so just having that time and building that in somewhere, right? Because otherwise everybody's gonna just keep on doing what they always do and not prioritize the study and understanding of how AI has truly impacted their field of work.
Sarah J. Buszka (14:43)
Absolutely. Nicki, what do you think, what perspectives are missing in the field of AI from your lens that you think we need more of?
Nicki Kowalchuk (14:53)
I feel like personally it's the long-term cause and effect, side effects, vision that's really truly missing. ⁓
So what if we get to a point where AI can do just about everything? Where does that leave us as humans? Like what purpose do we have? We've heard so many younger students, so many high schoolers, so many students coming into college going, so what job prospects will I have with AI? And it's like, what as a society will we do?
when we don't have all these tasks that we're used to having? Like how do we, as a species, still evolve and function and challenge ourselves and still think and learn and grow when we've got this thing that does the thinking for us, if we choose to let it?
Sarah J. Buszka (15:49)
Mic drop. Kathleen, what would you add to that?
Nicki Kowalchuk (15:51)
you
Kathleen Yanasak (15:55)
to bounce off of Nicki a little bit, but in like the opposite direction is, you know, what will we do with all of that extra time or what can we do? I know like I'm a mom and I work full time and I adjunct teach and what's missing from my life that I could fill it back in with that isn't AI or isn't those tasks, those sorts of things and...
I agree that we need to be having hard conversations and looking at a big societal picture of where do we want to land on this and what are we telling the future, the children, the future leaders of America? What are you going to do? What will your jobs be? What will even be available to you? Because I can't imagine how scary that is. ⁓ But also from a more positive lens, think of all of the things that humans...
in our 40-hour work week, in our two-day weekend, like how little do we get to do that stuff and could this, could it be a nice way for us to restructure even how just the entire machine works to give humans more ability for fulfillment and I err more on the side of caution being ⁓ someone in the creative field and someone who's an artist and someone who really likes work that's done by human beings but ⁓ I also...
The idea that I could spend a Saturday morning sketching in a sketchbook instead of, I don't know, some of the other tasks I have to do around the house, like make the grocery list, because I have something that does that for me, that brings me a lot of joy.
Nicki Kowalchuk (17:28)
I'm still waiting for Rosie from the Jetsons. I really want Rosie. I want a Rosie man.
Sarah J. Buszka (17:29)
yeah.
Kathleen Yanasak (17:31)
Mm-hmm. Any day now. ⁓
Sarah J. Buszka (17:38)
You're not alone in that. Rosie, yeah.
Brittney Schultz (17:39)
a Roomba, a Rosie.
Nicki Kowalchuk (17:40)
No, I want a Rosie.
Brittney Schultz (17:43)
Roomba's too minimalistic yet.
Kathleen Yanasak (17:43)
Good night.
Sarah J. Buszka (17:47)
Nicki's thinking big. Can always leave it to her to think big. I think that's a really good point. ⁓ Well, actually, I'm feeling reflective now thinking about, you know, what we're looking about, we're thinking about, feeling about all of these kind of challenges that are percolating the perspectives that we feel like we're missing. And, you know, when I introduced you all, you had great bios, you've done incredible things.
for us here at WCTC, but also for our region and for our state. So I wanna give you the opportunity to maybe brag a little bit here with a question I have for you. And I'm going to ask Kathleen to start this one off. Looking back in 2025, what stands out as a key milestone or success for you? And what are you most excited or curious about to see unfold in 2026?
Kathleen Yanasak (18:34)
⁓ With the updates that have happened in Adobe and some of those things, I think one of the biggest milestones I had this year was finding a nice balance between teaching intro to Photoshop students, intro to Illustrator students, that line to ride between using it and not using it, and truly watching it click to them, and watching them, and seeing them want to give real organic artwork. ⁓
That brought me a lot of joy. It brought me a lot of hope because as a teacher, you wonder if maybe, you know, are they just gonna wanna do the easiest possible thing and having my students question it and come to me and have these types of conversations with me have been so incredible because it shows me what they're gonna do when they get into this field and how they're gonna try and drive this forward or not or fight against it, which is great. I think that there needs to be, there has to be the push and pull otherwise we just end up.
completely on one side of the spectrum and I don't know if that's the right thing. So that was one of those milestone moments. Having a couple of class periods like that where it was really talking to my students, showing them what the tools can do, and then truly getting it, really getting it and really respecting art and creation as it is. ⁓ And I guess I look forward to more of that in 2026 as like more of these things start to come out and...
You know, things get easier and easier with editing photos or making additional icons, all that sorts of stuff. I know Adobe's going so ham with all of the AI tools that they're trying to present to us, but I look forward to seeing what works and what doesn't. And also watching my students just be like, I don't even need that. I would rather hand draw it myself. Like, OK, cool. Yeah, get it.
Sarah J. Buszka (20:21)
Yeah, you can still do that too. We still have hands, you can use them.
Kathleen Yanasak (20:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah J. Buszka (20:27)
Brittney, what would you say to this question? What stands out to you as a key milestone or success that you had in 2025 and what are you most excited for in 2026?
Brittney Schultz (20:36)
Sure. So end of 2024, I had a curriculum shift for one of my courses where I have the students work with AI to start their assignments and they build a rough draft with it first and then they still have to do two additional phases on that assignment to dig into like what they're interested in. And so this past year, I got to watch two more semesters of that unfold and
It was really exciting to see the students discuss it. Some were super excited about it and were like, you can see the courage building sooner. Because I feel like pre-AI, a lot of my students would feel lost for the first few classes. I mean, in computer science, we have a lot of turnover with students leaving because they psych themselves out because they just feel like they can't achieve it. They can't understand it yet. And it takes time, honestly.
⁓ A lot of students have expectation that you should understand it immediately, but sometimes it takes a few semesters to be able to fully see how the technology connects with what you're doing and the design choices that we make and so forth. And so it was really exciting to watch ⁓ the students get braver sooner about being able to actually produce something. And then over time, seeing the questions they were asking the AI to understand it further.
to push each other even. have them do discussion posts and some of them are like, you guys really need to take time. Talk with your AI and make sure you understand what your code's doing. The onus is now on you more than ever to make sure you understand it. And so watching that evolution this last year was great. I'm doing another curriculum project right now for another class. And just seeing how the AI tools have changed, it used to be, okay, you're just working with one version of AI and that's it. And now it's, well, you can actually switch
agent modes as you're writing your code. So you can start with a planning mode and it won't give you any code. It'll only design with you. And so you can actually talk through what am I gonna build? Give me a bunch of different ideas, because I don't have a good idea for how I can meet these really vague requirements that my teacher gave me. I wanna make it more creative. So what do I do? Then they get to switch into either an agent mode where it builds the whole thing for them or an ask mode where they can jump in between.
and still kind of build it alongside so they get to choose their approach. So I think it's really exciting to see where it's going and watch that confidence get built earlier and earlier into the courses.
Sarah J. Buszka (23:07)
I love that getting more confident and braver sooner. I think that, you know, great impact on retention there too. And Nicki? Yeah, absolutely. And Nicki, what about you? Looking back in 2025, what started as a key milestone or key success for you and what are you looking forward to in 2026?
Brittney Schultz (23:11)
Mm-hmm.
I hope so, it's how it feels.
Nicki Kowalchuk (23:27)
⁓ So last fall we officially launched our AI data specialist program, which was a whole lot of work. ⁓ So it's really awesome that we finally have it live. We've got really great enrollment. We've had really great students overall in the program. We still do get some AI is a buzzword and then they don't think around very long, but that's okay because it's not for everyone, but.
Brittney Schultz (23:45)
I would echo that.
Nicki Kowalchuk (23:55)
By and large, we're attracting really great students. ⁓ On a different front of it, I've been really impressed as to how many students are maybe questioning the AI and maybe not in a bad way, but ⁓ they're still using their own critical thinking skills. So I feel like when ChatGPT first came out, we had so many students have just
Give me the answer. Give me the answer. Give me the answer. And now I see so much less of that and so much more of, well, why is that the answer? Or how do I use that answer while that code looks really complicated? Is that really the accurate way to do it? Is the best way? ⁓ So I'm really looking forward to seeing students think more critically as they use AI in terms of how to best use it, what it gives them.
how to question the results of it. ⁓ So I'm really happy to see that shift and hoping to continue to see that shift going forward. More using it as a partner rather than a replacement.
Sarah J. Buszka (25:04)
Yeah.
Not completely just farming out the decision making and thinking writ large to a tool. That's great. Kathleen, what about you? What stands out as a milestone, key milestone for you in 2025 and what are you looking forward to in 2026 the most?
Kathleen Yanasak (25:25)
I already answered this question, Thank you.
Sarah J. Buszka (25:27)
you're right, you did. I keep wanting
to listen to more of it. I love hearing everyone's key successes and everything. We have so many and there's always more to share. Well, actually in that vein then, if I can just get you all in 30 seconds or less to give one piece of advice to our audience about how they can best apply AI in their work or in their organization. Kathleen, would you be willing to share your wisdom first?
Kathleen Yanasak (25:52)
Sure, I think I jump off of sort of what Nicki said again. Sorry Nicki, you're just full of good stuff today. I think critical thinking and thinking about where you can use it that doesn't hide what you're doing. Don't let it replace what you're doing. So for example, I make magazines here and I have to mock up covers and...
Nicki Kowalchuk (25:56)
does it?
Sarah J. Buszka (25:57)
Yeah
Kathleen Yanasak (26:16)
Initially trying to explain my ideas or draw out my ideas for my bosses could be really tough. Some of my bosses are very visual people. They need to see exactly it to get excited about an idea. And so being able to use AI to get to that initial mock-up, initial idea, so that I could start working on it sooner, so that I can start getting to the cool, fun creation part sooner was perfect. And so I...
Just like Nicki would challenge anyone to look at the ways that AI can help you give what you want to give. Make sure that your work and you are shining. Not just take this, do it, and now here it's done, fine, over. Like you're just going to get so much more satisfaction out of it too.
Sarah J. Buszka (26:59)
Absolutely. Nicki, what about you? What's your 30 second piece of advice for folks bringing AI into their work or organization?
Nicki Kowalchuk (27:07)
know what the tools are, know what the limits of the tools are, know what the tools do well. Because when we first started, it was like, OK, here's chat GPT, but what can I actually do with it? I think we all started to learn about how do these tools work, where are they really good at. We could start to see ways to apply them and make our jobs easier ⁓ versus if you don't know what
tool is best for? How are you going to apply it? So start by knowing what's out there, what it does, and just start small and start adding it in.
Sarah J. Buszka (27:46)
So just try, start somewhere, love it.
Nicki Kowalchuk (27:48)
Yeah,
I'm learning.
Sarah J. Buszka (27:50)
Brittney, what about you? 30 seconds. What's one piece of advice you give to listeners about bringing AI into their work or organization?
Brittney Schultz (27:57)
say ⁓ first and foremost be objective and ⁓ criticize what you get generated and make sure you validate what you're getting. ⁓ Also keep in mind that these are still ⁓ pieces of software that have been designed to be agreeable and keep engagement right? They still want your focus, they want your face time so ⁓
they are meant to be agreeable by design, which is why there's been so many issues in the courts with AI and sycophancy. So it's very important to remember that it's just a mirror of what you're asking. It's going to use the words that you've used to sculpt an answer that would make you happy. There's actually ⁓ psychology that can be employed with mirroring someone. if you were to lean.
Nicki Kowalchuk (28:35)
Thank
Brittney Schultz (28:51)
to the right and I lean to the right, you think that we're in sync together, right? This is what AI is doing. It is literally mirroring your movements to make sure that you are happy and engaged and continue to use the software. So keep that in mind and push if you want more criticism and more objectivity from your AI tools.
Sarah J. Buszka (29:11)
That's really great point too. There's a lot of parallel parallels there with even social media too. And this also sounds like a future episode topic that we'll have to touch on together. So, ⁓ stay tuned for that. Everybody would love to have you back on the show to continue talking about some of those things as well. ⁓ well, thank you all so much for joining us on the show. was an absolute pleasure to have you and thank you to everyone for listening to AI applied. Join us next time as we continue unpacking how real people are putting AI to work in the world.
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